I came across crazy Christians, Renew, thanks to recent posts on MamanPoulet (here and here). MP has also been writing about the religious fundies lobbying for a religious “opt-out” to the Civil Partnership Bill here.

Having had many conversations about the un-speak and unsubstantiated scare-mongering used by conservatives and the Christian right to attack gay relationships, the misses decided to email them once and for all seek to obtain some semblance of reason – or, heaven forefend, facts!

You may also wish to note that the Dáil (Ireland’s lower house of parliament) is to debate the second stage of the Civil Partnership Bill 2009 this Thursday, 3rd December 2009 at 6:45pm.

• LGBT Noise has organised a Flash Demo to take place outside the gates of Dáil Éireann while the debate is ongoing.

• If you can’t get yourself to the Noise protest, a Live Blog will be set up by MamanPoulet, to which I’ll also be adding my tuppence-worth.

• The debate will be streamed live on the Oireachtas website here.

First, to the email from the misses to Renew:

Hi there,

I see from your website that you are campaigning against the civil partnership bill, as you feel that “it will have serious implications on traditional marriage and the family unit.”

I would be most interested to hear your reasoning for this claim.

How exactly will traditional marriage be affected by the state granting legal rights to same sex couples??

Yours in anticipation

And Renew’s response:

Hi

If marriage-like rights are given to civil partnerships and same-sex couples then that will change societies view of traditional marriage. It will send a statement that anyone can sent up a family.

The Irish Constitution states that the Family (meaning a convenent between a man and a women for the procreation of children) is the natural, primary and fundamental unit of society. And that the government guarantees its protection because it is necessary for social order and indispensable to the welfare of the nation and the state.

It will also take away the inalienable and imprescriptible rights of the child to a father and a mother.

Kind Regards.
Mary

So. This my reaction, and further below is the reaction of the misses’s pal:
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An implied assertion is made that there is any such thing as “traditional marriage” and that “society” (whatever that is) holds one view of this “traditional marriage.” History and contemporary (and historical) societies show that marriage takes on many forms: polygamy; marriage to children; arranged marriages; and (yes) same-sex marriages. These are but a few. This is a matter of fact, and not assertion.

Anyone can set up a family. This is a fact, as can be seen from the census or the family law courts. Myriad family forms that in fact do exist in Irish society. It is a myth to suggest such families do not exist. To ignore them is to fail the members of those families, including the children involved.

The Constitution is not prescriptive in what constitutes a family, nor does the Constitutional reference to marriage preclude non-discrimination. It does not define the family, other than to say that the family is “founded” on marriage; rather, interpreting definitions of the family and marriage has been done by the Irish courts and, like all caselaw, can be revisited if and when deemed appropriate.

To narrowly define family – and by extension, according to the logic of Mary’s email, marriage – solely in terms of procreation is to disregard, for example: those with adoptive children, couples unable to reproduce (such as elderly couples, young couples where one or both may be infertile, couples who choose not to have children) the right to marry. In short, it denies reality and offends existing families.

Marriage equality does not deny children the right to the parental responsibility (guardianship), day-to-day care (custody), or contact (access) of a mother and father. This is a matter concerning the registration of births, and there are several international examples of how this spurious assertion is not sustainable, e.g. in the United Kingdom and New Zealand. (The current Law Reform Commission’s consultation paper on the Legal Aspects of Family Relationships” is illustrative.)

Finally, “marriage-like rights” are not what is being sought: it is marriage, full-stop.
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And from the mate:

Firstly, it is important to state that society’s view of marriage has changed, regardless of whether rights are given to civil partnerships. You might argue that ‘traditional marriage is an ideal’ but in modern Ireland fewer and fewer families fall into the this category. Many couples are not choosing to get married and many couples are not practising any form of religion. Therefore family units often reflect the changing society we live in. What is clear is that many family forms are evident in modern Ireland. Regardless of what you see as an ‘ideal’ we have to strengthen all forms of family unit regardless of whether they fall under the ‘traditional’ heading you talk about.

The family unit will continue to exist in many forms in the coming decades. Many people men and women will choose to get married regardless of the status of civil partnership. Many women and men will form family units that fall outside the traditional family form. Gay couples have the right to be treated as equals in society and have the right to have their loving, committed relationships acknowledged in a complete manner just as Married couples today have their relationships fully acknowledged and fully protected by the law.

Many women and men in Ireland are bringing up children in loving environments that may not reflect the traditional family unit (widowed mothers, single mothers, men who have lost a partner, unmarried couples, gay partnerships etc). You might not like the fact that this it happening but it is a fact of life. To deny children who find themselves in family units, where both parents are of the same sex, the full protection of the legal and status benefits that marriage entails is both cruel and misguided. The quality of love and care a child receives is what is important regardless of the form of family in which it is experienced.

There is no evidence – objective or otherwise – that extending Marriage rights to loving, committed same sex couples will undermine the status of Marriage. If anything allowing committed and loving relationships the status and legal rights that marriage entails would strengthen Marriage as a ideal and a practical institution. In reality you hope that a child is brought up in a loving and caring family unit whatever form that takes.
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What do you think?

You can let us know in the comments; and feel free to email Renew, too!